Committee Minutes

Summary minutes
Civil Service Commission
9/9/2004 re: Fire Department Issue
(Ed Grossbauer requested to address the Commission, after the last item on the
agenda. )

Madam Chair, Commission members, staff, my name is Ed Grossbauer, I’m with the
Fire Department. I’m the Union President. I would like to ask this body to make
a recommendation to City Council and staff to pursue the old system that we had
in place, with regard to negotiations. I know with the new pay plan, you folks
have been taken out of that, and you don’t have any say about the pay any
longer, but according to code, there’s supposed to be a meeting to occur, to
speak about wages and benefits, so the, they’ve chosen not to do that last
year, they have not done it this year, it’s in violation of the Code. There was
talk about putting together a committee to look at wages and benefits, more on
the benefits side. Our old HR Director had told us when he first got here, that
he was going to look at benefits, that never happened, and I know the Assistant
HR Director can verify that, as a fact.
Daryl Hovland – Madam Chair, members of the Commission, I was totally unaware
that Mr. Grossbauer was bringing this forward. Our discussions with the
Department Head group and with Rick Duquette, in our Wednesday meeting, Council
sessions that we had prior to the budget, discussion was brought up by
Councilmember Glassheim, that we would bring forward negotiations for benefits
and a group was going to get together. Those meetings will reconvene again on
the 29th of September and at that time, with the Commission’s blessing, I will
bring that forward as a reminder in those discussions, that we are going to
have discussions, negotiations for benefits. What we currently have done with
our benefits is, as Lt. Johnson is aware of, is bringing (a benefit item) it
forward to HR, HR researches it, we bring it forward to a COW, and then it’s
voted on by City Council. That seems to have worked. So, we can go either way,
going back to the old negotiations way, or the employee brings stuff forward,
helping us with the research, and we bring it forward to the Council. So, on
the 29th, we will reconvene those Council/Mayor working sessions.
Dawn Wilkie – Just to add, Commissioners, we have hired a Compensations and
Benefits Adminstrator, RaeAnn Burger, in our office, who also facilitates,
what Daryl just said, with the research portion and we do keep on top of
benefits and go out and do RFP’s to make sure that we are getting the most
benefit for our products, and RaeAnn is in the process of reviewing some of
those with our 3rd party administrators, now as we move forward. So, it would
be my suggestion that the employee rep group, if that’s who Mr. Grossbauer is
representing (Ed Grossbauer – that’s not who I represent, no) I’m not sure who
you are representing, but anytime an employee has a suggestion, recommendation,
on what they want to have looked at, can come to HR to do that.
Ed Grossbauer – The last time we did that, and I don’t want to become
confrontational here, but the last time we did that, we brought it forward to
Pension and Insurance, and the Pension and Insurance Committee brought a
recommendation forward to advance the Defined Contribution Pension Plan to a
more equitable position, and it was completely disregarded by the Council. It
never came to you folks, it should have come to you folks, you should have had
the opportunity to review it. Without these discussions…Ms. Kerian was
initially going to chair a committee to look at benefits on the Council end,
then I believe it was Mr. Hamerlik, that pushed it the last time, not Mr.
Glassheim, but Mr. Hamerlik, who is the one who spearheaded the conversation to
get this thing moving forward again, and I don’t, I honestly don’t know, the
last time we talked about the Department Head group, I was told the Department
Head group doesn’t exist. I asked for minutes of their meeting, and I was told
that Department Head group does not meet and it does not exist, so we’re not
getting information passed on to employees. The first time I saw about this
change in the Fire Department stuff, that you guys passed last month, was just
now.
Commissioner Kvasager – I understand what Ed’s talking about. There’s no
meaningful communication or negotiation, if you want to use that term. It seems
that that’s a frightening term and nobody wants to use it, at least one side or
the other, but it’s an accepted fact in labor relations and I know we’ve been
taken out of the loop, so we don’t have anything to say, and that does bother
me a bit, (Ed Grossbauer – it bother’s the employee’s too, Mr. Kvasager, and I
want you to know that) thank you. Every step is a process. We can be
facilitators in helping arrange those things, to an understanding the employees
have as well as the Council. But for a direct confrontation with Council and
employees, I think all to often, it’s turned off completely and a decision is
made at the Council meeting without the necessary meaningful negotiations. I
asked specifically, if you’ll remember, when it comes to the Fire Department, I
said, has this went through the usual procedure? And I was lead to believe it
had. I thought it was rather strange that noone was here representing.
Ed Grossbauer – You know Mr. Kvasager, I’m very diligent when there’s an issue
that regards the Fire department and it’s members and the members that I
represent, I’m always here. So for me to see this, I’m completely disappointed
in the administration of the Department. But that seems to be the track that
he’s chosen to take. I’m involved in a process right now that hopefully doesn’t
have to come before you folks, and actually, he’s insulated himself so I can
never come in front of you to discuss this particular item. But, the
conversation and dialogue between Chief O’Neill and myself has been virtually
shut down. So, like I said, the first time I saw the changes in the way they’re
going to test and promote our people was three minutes ago.
Dawn Wilkie – I would take exception to that Mr. Grossbauer, because on the
day that I called over to discuss selection criteria, you answered the
telephone and I spoke with you and told you what the change was. You and I
spoke about the selection criteria and changes.
Ed Grossbauer – Not about that Maam.
Dawn Wilkie – In any case, if you are recommending a change to the selection
criteria, you are welcome to come back with that information.
Ed Grossbauer – I don’t know what it entails.
Dawn Wilkie – I would ask for a point of order. We can put this on the next
agenda if Mr. Grossbauer has specific things he wants on, he should submit
those and we can then put in on an agenda.
Arvin Kvasager – I don’t want to get into a big ..match, but I’ve always felt,
and I’ve been on this for a few years, and I’ve always felt that if a person
wants to discuss something that’s pertinent and relavent to their department,
we should recognize them. And if he wants to talk about the promotional
activity that was passed, I feel rather strange if we passed something after I
specifically asked if this went before their organization and if it had not, I
don’t feel I’ve had all of the information that’s pertinent to something that’s
important to someone’s career ladder.
Daryl Hovland – Instead of getting into a he said, she said with Dawn
contacting the Fire Local through Ed, and he not recalling it, I would
recommend we bring it forward next month, we address this, we can sit and visit
with Ed on the issue. The issue of negotiations, we’ll get with the
administration. I will brief the Commission on what happens with the Department
Heads on the 29th, the Department Head meeting is a staff meeting, where Rick
Duquette calls all the Department Heads to the table. There is no minutes to
the meeting.
Arvin Kvasager – I realize that we’ve been taken out of that loop, but we haven’
t been taken out of the loop where there are promotions, etc.
Daryl Hovland – I agree. This came as a total surprise and I won’t editorialize
and say that Ed usually does this modem of surprising HR, but I’d like to have
the time to sit down and visit with Ed and bring it to the Commission next
month.
Chairperson Nies – Is that the Commission’s wish?
Commissioner MacGregor – I just have one question. You said that you were
wanting to switch to the old system of negotiations with employees for salaries
and benefits.
Ed Grossbauer – I think that’s the feel of the whole of City employees. That’s
not why I’m here. The salary portion has been taken out. There is still in the
Code, it still says the City will meet with employees once per year, and that
part has not been taken out of the Code to the best of my knowledge. It wasn’t
in the group of items that were deleted during the original...so it still is on
the Code.
Daryl Hovland – Madam Chair, Dawn just pointed out that section 4 that Mr.
Grossbauer is referring to is in the City Attorney’s office, being reserved, to
be rewritten and brought before Council for revision, so that’s where that
Chapter is that talks about negotiations.
Chairperson Nies – What’s the wishes of the Commission?
Commissioner MacGregor – I guess my feeling is that I think I need more
information before I can make an informed decision, and I think it would be
beneficial to you and the employees to meet with HR and see where we’re
standing so I can get more of a logical feeling of this…
Daryl Hovland – Mr. Grossbauer, you said you’re not representing the employee’s
here this afternoon?
Ed Grossbauer – I’m not here as a representative of the Employee Representative
group. I’m here as member and President of the Local FireFighter’s Union.
Dawn Wilkie – As far as the selection criteria objection, can I ask
specifically what change you’re objecting to so we can bring it forth.
Ed Grossbauer – Ms. Wilkie, I have no idea, because I haven’t seen any of the
changes. The first I’ve seen of it was 5 minutes ago, when I had a chance to
review the minutes that were approved this afternoon.
Daryl Hovland – Madam Chair, I would recommend that we sit down and talk with
Mr. Grossbauer, and we’ll get all of that information ironed out, we don’t need
to do it here in front of the Commission and bring back in the October meeting.
Arvin Kvasager – If I would be in order, I’d like that part deleted from our
motion to approve the minutes, and we’ll hold that open…the part relavent to
the promotional criteria for Firefighter.
Ed Grossbauer – Apparently there’s a change in the Deputy Chief, Fire Training
Officer, Fire Battalion Chief, Fire Marshall, Fire Captain, Fire Mechanic, and
Fire Apparatus Specialist. Mr. Kvasager I have no idea what the change is.
Arvin Kvasager – Having voted on the prevailing side, I would move that that
section be reconsidered and taken out and put on the next agenda.
Chairperson Nies – And that section is the top of the 4th page of the minutes.
Ed Grossbauer – Ms. Nies, there’s a section on the other page also, Deputy Fire
Chief.
Chairperson Nies – Ok, and the bottom of page 3. Do we have a 2nd?
Bev Bredemeier – I’ll second.
Chairperson Nies – Ok, we have a motion and a second. Discussion?
Commissioner MacGregor – I guess I understand why you want to take that out at
this point, but what would be the difference if after we get the information
provided to us, then we decide whether to go back or not?
Arvin Kvasager – I think that’s an incentive for both sides to sit down and
work this thing through. They wouldn’t have a motion that’s already settled. I
want that to be open.
Chairperson Nies – Any more discussion? All in favor of the motion? (All voted
affirmative) So those sections are open for the next Commission meeting...

Dawn Wilkie – As far as the discussion on the benefits, that’s something to
that we’re going to bring forward more information on the process. Correct?
Arvin Kvasager – We’re technically out of the loop on the salary. I think we
should be informed...
Ed Grossbauer – Madam Chairperson, that was my original intent was just to come
up here and talk about was just the benefits portion, I was unaware of the fact
that there is another meeting going to be held in the end of September, the
last Council meeting that we were able to watch, there was discussion about,
yes we’re going to convene a Committee to look at it again, but we have heard
nothing about when that’s going to happen or who is going to be invited, or
what the makeup of that group will be, what’s going to be on the table as far
as what we can talk about and discuss, like I said the Pension that was moved
forward was quashed by the Council when it was brought forward, we were told as
employee representatives, and now I will speak for the entire employee
representative group that this particular item has been pulled from Council
discussion and will not be talked about, so none of us were here to talk about
it. It was then openly discussed on Council floor and it made the employees
look like we didn’t really care about that particular issue, which is a
complete fallacy. (MacGregor asked what part) Well the Pension, moving the
Defined Contribution Pension Plan from it’s 4%/4% match to bring it up to 5%/5%
and then look at 6% in the near future. That’s a very concerning issue for the
new employees who are stuck in that.
Arvin Kvasager – My motion doesn’t really deal with that. Ed Grossbauer – I
understand that and that’s why I came back up.
Arvin Kvasager – My motion deals with the fact that you were not aware, nor
were you part of the negotiations to determine this career ladder which could
possibly be changing. I don’t know if it is or not.
Ed Grossbauer – It absolutely is changing. There was no assessment center in
some of those where now there is an assessment center. And I’m not necessarily
opposed to an assessment center. It all depends on who is going to sit on that
assessment center board.
Dawn Wilkie – That has not changed. Just for the Commissions knowledge. It was
seniority and experience that were interchangeable and we’ll be going over this
with Mr. Grossbauer. It was approved by the Civil Service Commission months
prior to this last month’s change.
Ed Grossbauer – But the makeup of that particular group was never solidified.
Dawn Wilkie – It was actually, but we’ll go over that.
Chairperson Nies – So, we’ll be having those considerations on the agenda for
the next meeting.
Arvin Kvasager – We need to work this out to a successful agreement.
Ed Grossbauer – If that is in fact the case, I will pass on correspondence if I
cannot be here, to let you know that we’ve done that.
Dawn Wilkie – Can I ask a question? When we do something administratively at
the City, as Mr. Grossbauer is saying that he is here representing the Local
Fire Union, I would think it would be his responsibility and the department’s
responsibility. We at the City do not answer to the Union. We accept their
recommendations, their input, and the Commission accepts that, through Mr.
Grossbauer as their representative, but we don’t have any communication or have
anything to do with the union and they with us, how then can we be expected to
wait on matters that are administrative matters, until they have their input.
I’m not saying what we did was wrong, or whatever, I’m saying when he
represents the union now, to say I wasn’t here and didn’t know, but you are
part of the Fire Department , and through the Fire Department, I would hope we
can facilitate better communication between management and the employees at the
Fire Department level so that this doesn’t happen again.
Bev Bredemeier – Because when we voted on this, we were under the impression
that it had gone through the union reps and was approved.
Daryl Hovland – In discussions with Deputy Chief Flermoen, we were under the
assumption that everything was run through the union.
Ed Grossbauer – I can tell you absolutely that it was not discussed in the
union forum.
Daryl Hovland – We’ll work it out.
Patsy – MacGregor motion to adjourn. So moved, Bredemeier second. All
approved.