Council Minutes

MINUTES/COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE
Monday, July 14, 2003 - 7:00 p.m.___________

The city council met as the Committee of the Whole on Monday, July 14, 2003 in the council chambers in City Hall with Mayor Brown presiding. Present at roll call were Council Members Brooks, Hamerlik, Gershman, Christensen, Kerian, Kreun - 6; absent: none.

Mayor Brown announced that when addressing the committee to please come forward to use the microphone, give your name and address for the record, and advised the meeting is being televised live and taped for later broadcast.

COUNCIL MEMBER GLASSHEIM REPORTED PRESENT

Mayor Brown commented on events held during the past week including the County Fair; SPA is going on right now and would encourage everyone to see at least one show, program education and entertaining; thanked Park District and volunteers for Summerthing in University Park this weekend; St. Michael's and Sacred Heart's Elementary School band this past weekend; the Dream held a fund-raiser concert in Town Square to create an indoor skate park, music venue and artists gallery; that on August 1 and 2 Grand Forks will be hosting the Midwestern Babe Ruth Baseball Tournament, and there is need for host families, and if interested call Park District for more information; getting closer to Chili Cook-off and Showdown between Mayor Stauss and his team; and announced the latest sales tax collection and over same 7-month period as last year collected 15.45% more in sales tax and the 12-month numbers are 12.74% higher.

PRESENTATION BY HORIZONS DECADE GROUP

Rich Becker, member of the New Horizons Decade Group, stated they recently commissioned a survey to be done on their behalf by SimmonsFlint, an advertising firm in Grand Forks, and will be seeing results of that survey. He stated it was their intent and hope that this information will be valuable input to the City as they go forward.

Doug McDonald, CEO Praxis, Inc., located in Grand Forks, presented survey completed July 9 and 11, 2003 by staff of the Social Science Research Institute at the University of North Dakota, and surveyed random sample of potential voters in the city of Grand Forks, the survey instrument was developed by SimmonsFlint, Social Science Research Institute and CEO Praxis and margin of error of this size sample which is over 400 is plus or minus 5%. He stated they hope to complete one or more surveys to continue to gauge opinions on these issues within the community and provide useful information to the council and mayor. He stated a complete copy of the survey results are available in the executive survey and council has copies of plus a flow of documents with all the raw data, the survey itself, executive summary and methodology has been included; and presented the survey. (Attachment #1)

Hamerlik asked if the refusal to answer or declining transpire before the questions or on a specific question and that if told it would take 10-12 minutes, might not want to answer; Mr. McDonald stated they tried to keep it as brief as possible but did not track that data.

Mayor Brown stated on ranking of initiatives or elements by percent, he was not surprises by the ranking, this is a very thoughtful response to people thinking we need to add local businesses and regional businesses, flood control and greenway maintenance are priority in this community, property tax reduction is 70%, broaden the visibility of our city 65%, entry level housing and reduction of flood control assessments, 60%, and the aquatics center and if look at the amount proposed in the idea, is $960,000 per year to service the 20-year debt on a $13 million facility, and the community has rightly arranged needs and wants that are still doable and this is thoughtful response by our citizens and encouraged that 23% agreed with a 1.25 percent sales tax and means that one-fourth of the community would support that, and glad they will have further surveys and encouraged by that.

Mr. Becker stated his closing comment was that they would like to do other surveys as an educational process, hopes this has been helpful and of interest, that surveys are very costly and would like to request the council to move with as deliberate speed as can to bring this to a vote of the community, that the New Horizon Decade Group has a concept which starts with the Alerus and goes to hotel and water park and various museums; that the hotel and water park/aquatic facility which has some component of civic contribution to it, that is the credibility for them to privately raise all the rest of the money and interest other parties to help them with the development and if there is no sales tax issue then it makes their job very difficult in going forward.

Gershman suggested to move this process along, that they would hear some people tonight but that the city council hold a public hearing this coming Thursday night at 7:00 p.m. so that more citizens can come forward and possibly next Monday night the city council could take a vote on one of these proposals or something in between. It was noted that two council members can present a request in writing to the mayor's office and a meeting is set, but should try to coordinate it for the maximum number to be here and also the public through TV. Council Members Gershman and Christensen called for a special city council meeting for Thursday, July 17, 2003 at 7:00 p.m. in the city council chambers. Hamerlik stated that perhaps the meeting could also be televised; Mayor Brown stated that shouldn't be a problem.

Christensen asked what is the New Horizon Group and who constitutes the group: Mr. Becker stated it is a group called the New Horizons Decade, and are incorporated as a 501C3 but not under that name, incorporated under the National Collegiate Hockey Hall of Fame doing business as New Horizons Decade. He stated they have five members: himself, Lonnie Laffen, Jim Holdman, Paul Mishler, and Gordon Caldis. Relative to the sales tax increase where 57.4or 5% strongly agree or agree but going on to spend most of that money on a $13 million aquatics park had such a low ranking for the aquatics park, Mr. McDonald stated people want the least tax, no matter what, and in his estimation those that do agree look at leadership and moving forward, some people want high reduction in property taxes and assessments but unwilling to step forward and support an issue for a proposal that would remedy those. Mr. McDonald stated his opinion is to move forward with one proposal.

Mr. Becker stated over past several months lot of data gathering from their group about the hotel and the aquatics center, very little going forward of trying to enunciate the reasons and need for it, the aquatics facility has been something that the general public has picked up on and in his observation, there has been much more of a case made against the facility, so far only negative but do everything they can do to help educate why this fits into the total program.

Mr. Swanson stated two members can call a special meeting of your body as a city council, don't have the ability in the Code to call for a public hearing, and not required to take action at your meeting, but to convene as a city council, that will be dependent upon how the issue is framed in the call for the meeting. He stated his advise is for whoever is seeking the meeting is to determine exactly the scope of the meeting so the agenda will reflect what it is the council is seeking to do Thursday night. Kreun stated that if that is a public hearing would suggest that Mr. McDonald and other groups would be here to help explain the survey to the people that do come and as far as educational process goes to interpret some of this information. He stated they indicated that there is a high demand or interest on reducing property tax but nobody wants to come forward to help figure out a solution to reduce the property tax or help pay for it in a different manner. Mr. McDonald stated that people want less property tax but don't want to do anything about that, and they suggest an aquatics center is not important but that's the one issue they are most behind.

Kerian stated after assessing the information that they were provided, if looking at ranking of initiatives where you've grouped them - one is additional local and regional business, flood control ands greenway maintenance are the really important things - and aquatics center/splash pool not at the top of the list. Mr. McDonald stated in a future survey, to refine and define those elements differently and get to the core of it. Kerian stated she wanted to remind people that any vote that they take is not a final vote on whether or not this passes and the citizens in fact decide, can decide what goes to the people but the people will be deciding.

Brooks stated he heard numerous comments from people who said radio shows had people calling and commenting about survey while the survey was still going on and impacted somehow. Mr. McDonald stated some issues very negative about the survey itself and about the way it was conducted, decisions and comments based on limited knowledge.

Hamerlik stated there is a possibility that they would not need, although it brings out the importance, a special council meeting rather than a special committee of the whole meeting on Thursday, wouldn't have to have a quorum and wouldn't have to get signatures by everybody which would be cost savings in itself. Mr. Swanson stated by Code once a call for a meeting is made, the agendas are to be distributed to the city council members; the Code doesn't require that each member sign a receipt but that has been used in the past to demonstrate the service and to establish that you were notified of a special meeting.

2.1 The Comprehensive Annual Financial Report of the City of Grand Forks for the year ended December 31, 2002 and the Independent Auditor's Report._________
The city auditor stated that on Monday night they are asking this item be referred to the Audit Committee (Finance/Development Committee), copies of the management letter and letter to the finance committee that is required of the auditors were placed on council members' desks (copies of the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report were delivered under separate cover). One of the most important documents is new guidance for audit committees for public sector entities with some of the things that have gone on in private sector, the audit committees are becoming more important in our sector of reporting and would ask the audit committee to look at that and highlight what the responsibilities are of the audit committee, what the makeup should be and the committee can decide by Monday night if they wish to ask others to be involved on their committee to review the documents. The responsibilities are listed in the audit committee guide.

2.2 Sales tax proposal.
Mayor Brown thanked New Horizons Decade Group for tackling this issue and
adding some good information to the discussion tonight, that we keep talking and listening to each other, and bring forward the proposal tonight so can define best direction that will allow us to move forward and keep focused on securing our future. His role as mayor is to lead, and leading by initiating a discussion about our present and our future, by proposing a clear and tangible plan for our future and by using this discussion time to make a decision that is educated, well thought out and in the best interests of the entire community. He stated he would like the council to look at the proposal with an open mind and discuss its merits and their concerns and develop a consensus proposal that moves our community forward in the best interests of the residents and the entire region.

Grant Jenson stated he was asked the questions in the survey and sees no resemblance to the statistical results of those questions, all the questions that were asked of him required that if for progress you automatically were for the water park, you didn't have a choice; he was so disturbed that he wrote a letter to the mailbag, delivered it Friday morning, and hasn't been in the paper 3 days later - it seems rather difficult to believe that by increasing the sales tax to 8%, you're going to make Grand Forks more important destination - that we're trying to increase business by increasing sales tax - doesn't make sense. He stated a few years ago the bond issue for the Alerus Center was set and levy set to determine enough to pay the bond issue, and asked what the excess money being used for above the amount that was needed to amortize the bond issue or if the City is accelerating the payment of that bond issue - that there should be money there to do what you're talking about doing - too many issues here but was a false phony survey and doesn't recognize anything that was shown on presentation as being results of the questions he was asked - and feels this is a step backward and easy to solicit support for the retailers that are going to go dark in Columbia Mall if have to pay 8% sales tax.

The city auditor stated in regard to the 3/4% that was levied for Alerus facility and debt service, can't be used for an aquatics center or anything else because specific uses are tied only to the Alerus Center. When it builds surplus, that surplus stays there and would allow us to early retire the debt after its call date which is after 2008 and do that in inverse order or the other option the council does have the authority in looking at that surplus and use it for additional capital for the Alerus as needed. Earlier this year the council approved buying a couple more lots using some of that surplus and that is appropriate because that is for parking for the Alerus.

Mayor Brown stated re. Mr. Jensen's comments at 8% and malls going dark - presently the sale tax in the city is 5% for the State and total sales tax is 6 3/4%, and doesn't feel council will bring forward 1 1/4% additional sales tax, expects the number to be less than 1% - Medora is 7.5% presently and doesn't think the malls will go dark.

Christensen stated that Mayor started this conversation in February of this year, took
lot of personal courage, that we have been in continued conversation as to his initiative and that he and Mr. Kreun are on the water task force committee along with a couple gentlemen from the Park District, some staff from both, and are giving this very serious consideration and while being on the council has identified some needs that are going to have to be addressed at some point in time by all the citizens in this community, including this elected group and future elected groups and looks forward to the next 2 or 3 weeks to continued conversations and discussion with the Mayor and his staff as they identify needs and try to come to some consensus as to the percentage of sales tax they will recommend to be placed on the ballot, the ultimate decision by each of us when go to the polls and vote - this is a we and not a Mayor Brown initiative, he brought it forward and have to deal with it in a deliberative body and give the whole thing a chance.

Mr. Jensen stated you couldn't give a straight answer on any of the questions, a legitimate honest answer of how you actually felt - doesn't expect that Grand Forks can have the group that is putting together the package do the study, a feasibility study has to be done by an independent firm, not those asking for the money to build the facility.

Gershman stated in answer to Mr. Jensen's statement that this is a phony survey is that only 28% were in favor of the aquatics center and if load the questions so that would be positive, that didn't happen. Mr. Jensen stated he did not have the opportunity to say that he was not in favor of the aquatics center without saying he was against any future growth and development, that results don't compute with the questions that were asked him and would like to see the questions that were submitted to see how they resemble the questions asked of him, and ask some of the interviewers to look at the questions. He stated he felt uncertain about the validity of the questions that were asked him in comparing results of what they are showing you.

Mr. McDonald stated in response to Mr. Jensen's comments, certainly how important is the aquatics center is an individual question and maybe doesn't fit into his computer but the opportunity to express a negative opinion on individual issues was presented, and the collapsing of the information towards the end in regards to separate proposals was to allow the council a foundation to continue with that.

Terry Bjerke, 5356 5th Avenue North. Mayor Brown asked to make sure we received copies of this.

Mr. Bjerke stated on page 9, q. (2) in dealing with the use tax, top part talks about the flood, but last sentence talks about the Alerus Center (Mr. Swanson stated he would have to review that.) He stated that setting a public hearing with 3 days notice on this issue finds interesting, have had since February to make that decision and difficult for a lot of people to attend that meeting. He stated he was going to go through this point by point on an analysis with some numbers and wants to challenge you on these issues and maybe bring some information that you should consider when you get to that issue.

1. reduction of Property Taxes - School District - 1996-97 school year and compare to 2002-03 school year and in that 6-year time frame have lost 1,709 students and at the same time their budget - from $46 million to $61.5 million. Mayor Brown stated the County has demonstrated that they are not interested because if we affect their ability to levy mills, that affects federal funding so County is not involved - and the School District has indicated that they will not be part of this destination city initiative at this time so the City is looking at doing a 20 mill tax reduction for that part but still think the School District and County should continue to communicate so we do the best job we can as elected officials. He stated he couldn't talk for the School District or the County Commission.

Mr. Swanson stated the draft before you establishes a use tax at the same level or the same rate as a sales tax; insofar as the sale tax has a 3/4% attributed to the Alerus Center and upon payment of those bonds that sales tax will be eliminated, he was asked to draft the equal provision for the use tax so you wouldn't have a situation where your use tax was 3/4% higher than your sales tax. The only way to do that is to tie the sunset for both use tax and sales tax to the same event and that event would be the payment of the bonded indebtedness. Mr. Swanson stated there are two different drafts, the use tax is exclusively for flood control, another draft he provided had similar uses for sales and use tax, but the reason that language refers to Alerus type language is that when the Alerus debt is paid off, both the sales tax and the use tax sunset.

Mr. Bjerke stated that consistently sales tax comes in higher than regular inflation, which means growing government and this means we have to raise taxes to pay for things we need, property tax growing higher than inflation for over a decade - need to control spending. Current sales tax up 15%, property taxes projected to be up 6% and inflation 2 to 3%, massive increase over rate of inflation and yet want to raise taxes and asked where is the controlling of spending. He also asked a number of questions: Flood Control: that if sales tax used for flood control assessments, there needs to be a sunset clause as assessments will go away once dike paid for. Water Park: should be sunset clause, not to exceed clause of what it is going to cost, that City putting up $2 million and Park District $1 million and asked where the $3 million is and what will happen to it; Current parking at Alerus: who is going to pay to buy more land and paving, whether out of Alerus funds or water park funds; how will long term capital improvements be funded; operational deficit; and that before voting on this citizens need to know what it is going to cost, philosophy on concessions, and asked for clarification on hotel; marketing: who is going to control the money before voting on that (Those spending money on marketing are Alerus, King's Walk, CVB, hotel). Economic Development: duplicating State. Affordable Housing: have federal and state programs and need to look at rules and regulations as a city: Maintenance fund for greenway: new spending. Special Assessment infrastructure: give CDBG money to non-profits who duplicate and charge for use of their services. He stated answer to all problems needs more money and disagrees with that and is a matter of choices. Property tax: not valid argument to increase rate of inflation, shows lack of effort and attempt to make things more efficient. Renters: any increase in sales tax is an increase on a renter and if property tax relief that renter subsidize house owners. Residents vs. non-residents (60-40 split): have 1% sales tax, 50% to property tax relief, 30% infrastructure and 20% economic development and 40% funded from people who don't live in the city; Alerus Center project - 40% paid by people who don't live in the city - and State of North Dakota gave City $52 million for a dike - and people who don't live in the city are contributing to the city of Grand Forks and paying fair share.

Currently we're spending for Alerus $70 million, Wastewater treatment plant $34 and dike at $75 million and if water park were to go through at $15 million = $194 million; landfill in 2 to 3 years $10 million, second half of wastewater treatment plant $11 to $15 million and water plant $70 to $95 million = $91 to 121 million. $285 to $314 million and not counting interest and that is going to have to be paid for from approx. 2001 to 2031. everything is going up and still asking for sales tax increase.

Mr. Bjerke challenged the council members: and that if putting this on the ballot, ask citizens if enough is enough.

Glassheim stated he cannot support such a large increase in sales tax as has been proposed, thinks that is excessive, takes seriously that we are a regional center and depend upon the good graces and opinions in East Grand Forks, Lakota, Grafton, etc. and doesn't want to be seen as financing things that are really quite specific to the city of Grand Forks with other people's money. That he is looking at this as what's important to him and getting lost in debate - need to replace Riverside pool and was intention from the flood on to replace it; that if want another city-wide pool to replace Riverside it may have to be designed differently from older pool, need a pool that will attract and be funded for a new generation of children, families; that we don't know the outcome, know that this pool has a secondary purpose involved in the creation of this private sector investor in land adj. to the Alerus Center and success of a hotel which was always promised to us as part of building the Alerus Center as something that was needed. He stated he wanted to return focus to aquatics center and relationship to Riverside pool and future investment in the city.

Mayor Brown stated destination city initiative is dynamic process, started at 1.25% and to fund ideas, that Fannie Mae is going to take over Affordable Housing in the near future, out tax plan would affect County's tax revenues so took that out.

Hamerlik stated Thursday will hear from people and wise to do that, that he has some opinions at this time, that he is for an aquatics center and not at this time supportive of the increases the mayor has proposed.

Christensen stated that when they vote will be representation by them as to their position in supporting the mayor's initiative or portion of it. He stated he asked to be on the task force because he wants to know what it is going to cost, nature of subsidy and if affordable for the average citizen and will have those answers for the citizens before they vote as best we can and have been building in part of the sales tax to pickup the shortfall for the Alerus. He started what portion of the sales tax they will be asking the citizens to vote on in addition to that which will fund the Alerus, they have identified some needs that are approaching: the cost for the greenway and on-going maintenance of the flood protection facility, fund out of two sources, general property taxes or sales tax revenue. He stated re. neighbors in Grafton, Larimore, etc. that protection will be paid for with $52 million the State has given us but we have duty to maintain the regional shopping facility and if ask for some sales tax from outlying areas to assist us in maintaining that protection facility so they have place for regional services. The survey suggests that we are concerned about spreading the base, economic development, and we have not funded the effort that is required for sustained economic development for a period of time and if get some of the excess sales tax dollars can amount a stronger and better thought out initiative for economic development, and members of EDC have been working on reformulating the economic development initiative and effort in this community, and will take some money and part of a vision to grow the base, and if grow the base, will go down. That a lot of the projects coming at us are result of the federal government mandating lot of changes in wastewater, water treatment facility and have to pay for those and most paid with user fees - that consultant helped with new study for fees in our community that will be assessed against all of us and revamped entire user fee structure and how it is going to be presented and implemented to pay for some of these projects over the next 5-15 years and trying to keep everybody's fees down and yet bring projects on line in cost-effective efficient manner as possible. He stated that when vote on the sales tax will have identified what they perceive to be future needs of this community that have to be paid for, and will be prepared to defend his vote based upon his analysis of the needs that are coming and how they are going to be paid for.

Kerian stated as we move ahead we do not try to replace more of the city's property tax with sales tax because that mix gives us more vulnerability to certain kinds of economic conditions, and would want to look at any very carefully - the greenway, the aquatics center is not only good for neighbors but for local community and that this has to be affordable to our local community and interested in seeing the result on that, and ask people to continue the conversation and what is next best step for the city.

Brooks stated he can't support the Mayor's proposal in total and Mayor has alluded to the fact that some of these things aren't even in place anymore, but that it is the only plan in town, we have this to work with and forced us to look at a plan, but when look at economic development have a lot of work to do before putting dollars in there, finally filled our city position in the liaison and currently vacant on EDC side, looks at things in economic development that disturbs him and thinks that is the key to the future, and also that we haven't sat down and put a plan together to implement this and how address this and how address the financial statement that they've just received and some stringent requirements coming up re. this. He stated he is waiting to hear more input from people.

Kreun stated maybe the 1.25% is higher than what we need at this point and expect, that the survey when asked people how much the City got from the tax dollar and 56% did not know how much the City got from the tax dollar - only 25% goes to the City.- and when talking about sales tax up 12.74 for the year and out of that 12.74 the State get $3 or 4 million and the City gets $1 million and not flush with money; that 6-7 years ago what happened in our community and because of the hard work of our past councils and present councils and what has happened in our city in that time - Concrete, Inc. has large expansion, Cirrus been built, EERC is expanding, UND almost at record enrollment (incl. doctoral degrees, research people, etc.), Altru had cancer institute started a few years ago, now starting heart institute, SCI , Human Nutrition Lab, two new hotels in town and have happened since the flood, Menard's had huge expansion, Lowe's is coming into town, these are called economic development, that's what happens when have a city that is progressive and goes forward and we need to continue to grow.

Gershman stated when this started he was not convinced about the aquatics center and has come around to understand the benefits this could have for the community and the region and will support that. He stated they are 8 elected officials and all pay sales tax and he is the only one that collects sales tax from customers and deals with that every day and hear comments and is sensitive to raising sales tax, concerned about going too high because of the residents who live in rental units that will not get immediate benefit from property tax relief, not in favor of using any sales tax for property tax relief, that he doesn't believe that regional shoppers should pay for that again as they are already paying for infrastructure, Alerus, economic development under the taxes that we have now. That when this started he thought a quarter cent increase is something that the citizens would understand and still there, but when in Washington a couple weeks ago lobbying for increased funding for the flood protection plan and in visiting with delegation and staff, the word seems to be that there will be less federal money coming through for many of the things that we need and one could be Highway Users' Fund, CDBG funds, etc. He stated he is concerned about infrastructure, when had CIP meetings had discussion about what is needed and he is leaning towards finding some money for infrastructure so they can continue to leverage the Highway Users and perhaps use that money on collector streets so that they will not be special assessed and continue to improve those streets as those are the streets we all use and the regional shopper and visitor to Grand Forks use to get around to the amenities, health care and education and entertainment that they seem to enjoy in Grand Forks; he stated he didn't know where he will end up ultimately but is extremely sensitive to region and to those of lesser means where any tax is more of a burden upon them than upon others who can afford it. He stated he could not sit back and not concern himself with those people and would like to hear from the citizens.

Mr. Swanson stated what they have before them is a draft amendment to the Home Rule Charter, and if you decide that the City is to place before the electors a possibility of increasing your sales tax and use tax, you must amend the Home Rule Charter, what he has drafted and asked for comments and criticism to the drafting, and explained that this particular area of the HRC lays out what authority the City has and in p. deals with gross retail sales tax, in subsection (1) three proposed changes that are of significance, first change increases that rate from 1% to 2 1/4%, that follows Mayor's request for drafting; second change is to delete what he amounts to be duplicative language on the financing or the expansion or renovation of the Grand Forks Water Treatment Plant and that is adequately covered under infrastructure improvements, that is a carryover from the original sales tax some years ago; third change is to add the provision for intergovernmental activities and functions (joint powers agreements, etc. and includes potential authority for agreements with the Park District for operation of an aquatics center or water park). He stated on page 9, subsection (5), the change increases the cap of your sales tax on any one transaction and the cap proposed there is reflective of an increase of 1 3/4% tax.

q. is deleted and that is an additional 1/4% that he describes as hotel/motel food and beverage tax, and deleted as a special tax and is rolled into general sales tax. That in subsection q. although all discussions have been in terms of sales tax, believes the intent is to look at both the sales and use tax, presently use tax is dedicated to flood control, flood abatement and flood protection projects and what they have attempted to do in this draft is to mirror the exact breakout of the sale tax and the use tax so that when the Alerus Center bond is paid off, the use tax will equivalently reduce. He stated the use tax is restricted to flood control, flood abatement type projects, and effect there is sales tax and use tax will be equal throughout the term.

He stated they have discussed greenway and it is his opinion that greenway is adequately defined within the term of infrastructure, however, if for any reason you wish to add greenway as a stated use, leaves that to their call and it is his opinion it is part of the infrastructure, and if other specifics as far as the uses they would like his office address, please feel free to contact him.

He stated if they do call for an election on an amendment to the Home Rule Charter, it will require a minimum of 60 days, and suggested they utilize 65 days and that provides 5 extra days at a minimum for administration, publication, etc. but must have the 60-day timeframe in between. He stated the other thing that is not in this packet they might want to consider and taking another step towards specificity, if you were to go out with a proposed ballot on an amendment to the Home Rule Charter, may also wish to go out at the same time with a specific sales tax amendment ordinance so that those voters will have before them not only the Home Rule Charter which is an authoritive document, meaning you have the authority, but not obligated to exercise it, but also have the ordinance before them showing exactly what it is that you would be enacting, assuming they both pass. He stated if have any comments, questions, please pass them on. Next week Mr. Warcup will be at the discussion and will be well versed in this.

Brooks asked if it would be 65 days for any citizens to add another choice on there, by petition.. Mr. Swanson stated that you need a minimum of 65 days between time you call for an election on a proposed Home Rule Charter to the date you vote on it, there are methods for Home Rule Charter's amendments to be set for public election by petition and would be his opinion you could not accommodate that or accomplish those petitions and call for an election and drafting the ballot and proposed Home Rule Charter amendments within 65 days, they are potentially mutually exclusive and he has not attempted to sit down with calendar to determine when they should call an election, just advising you that when you want to, make sure you have allowed 65 days as a reasonable number.

Brooks stated should the council feel the urge to allow the citizens to petition if they wanted to add something else, it would take longer than that, hard for them to get it on there is 65 days. Mr. Swanson stated it would be difficult and virtually impossible to do in that time period. He stated he didn't want to interpret their draft is exclusive draft, and is asking for any input or criticism of what they have drafted.

Brooks asked if two different proposals could go on the ballot. Mr. Swanson stated he would caution against putting out two separate forms of Home Rule Charter amendments because of the possibility that if both were to pass, you have likelihood of having inconsistent Home Rule Charter provisions and would be litigating which Home Rule Charter amendment prevails, and that would not come with recommendation from his office.

Mr. Swanson stated his recommendation is that once they decide they wish to go out for an election, that you not only decide the date of election and decide specifically on what it is you going to vote on; wouldn't think you would want to call for an election and change proposed amendment or ballot language; you may have other ballot issues but without Home Rule Charter amendment you can't impose additional sales tax, and if not prepared to either amend the draft or approve the draft, his request would be that you delay it or undertake further discussion or drafting alternatives.

Hamerlik stated we take from the committee of the whole and vote on it the next meeting, with the hearing on Thursday, is quick, and maybe shouldn't vote on it next Monday, but should be waiting for vote on this Gershman stated we could sit back on Thursday, listen to see if continued interest, and have another public comment period on the 24th and not take vote Monday and committee of the whole meeting on the 28th of July, and need to decide what want to put on the ballot and have language written and may have to have special council meeting on the 28th to move this forward, and mayor would like on end of September, can try to accommodate that. Hamerlik stated if do that, good for the public to know this and should try to decide that so give ample notice of meetings, when vote. Mayor Brown stated public hearing the 17th and possibly 24th and on 28th have special city council meeting to vote on language on Home Rule Charter.

Glassheim asked if the content of draft, content doesn't require any readings, and if want slightly different form than the draft, need to work with him to bring in what they want introduced prior to the meetings. Mr. Swanson stated he would encourage that and that it is important that his office be involved as early as possible in any drafting.

2.3 Plans and specifications for Project No. 5536, District 425, North Pines area sanitary sewer____________________________________________________
There were no comments.

2.4 Plans and specifications for Project No. 5537, District No. 279, North Pines area watermain.__________________________________________________
There were no comments.

2.5 Plans and specifications for Project No. 5538, District No. 426, North Pines area storm sewer_________________________________________________
There were no comments.

2.6 Bids for Project No. 5510, District No. 593, Columbia Park 29th Resubdivision paving, Phase I._____________________________
There were no comments.

2.7 Bids for Project No. 5530, District No. 594, Southbrook area paving.
There were no comments.

2.8 2003 TCSP Grant applications.
Hamerlik stated when this appeared in the paper he received a call saying that the north
end was noticeably absent from any of the grant money.

Brooks stated they are doing this project without paving the path, and if the intent is that we're doing project without enough money so finish over two years. Wayne Lembke, project engineer, stated there isn't a specific timeline when this would be paved, they would do a compacted aggregate and some drainage work so wouldn't lose the gravel, and until development happens in that area or get funding to do that work it wouldn't be paved but the DOT supports this project and will support an unpaved multi-used path with TCSP funds.

2.9 Engineering agreement with Webster, Foster & Weston for TCSP Grant.
There were no comments.

2.10 Budget Amendment - Fire Department.
There were no comments.
2.11 Bid for decontamination system for the Fire Department.
There were no comments.

2.12 Reconsideration of council action on June 16, 2003 relating to proposed ordinance amending sections of the City Code relating to water, wastewater and sanitation user charges, rates and fees to allow fees, charges and rates to be established by resolution.___________________________________________________________
Gershman stated he asked that this be reconsidered, it was made clear to him that a resolution would give us flexibility and could also have hearings before we would do any rate increases and asked if could reconsider. Kreun stated during our process of long range planning we put into play a document that would help us with this process for various projects (water treatment plant, wastewater system and storm water) and was asked by this body to look at, the confusion that took place was having an ordinance after being placed into the budget and it appeared were having two rate increases during that same timeframe and confusing the public and asked Mr. Swanson to incorporate that language into this resolution. He stated his suggestion was to leave in resolution and give it its own item on the agenda.

Glassheim stated he didn't understand what they gain by doing it by resolution, if gain flexibility to do quicker not sure that is good, slowing things down so people get a chance to think about it, not sure why changes can't be done in ordinance in two readings and amendable from year to year as they need to be changed.

Mr. Swanson stated that when this occurred there was a great deal of confusion, not only with public, but also with City Hall as to whether or not the rates had previously been amended in the context of your adoption of the budget, when it occurred in January or February of 2003; that by adopting it by resolution which is how you adopt your overall budget, you place the two procedures consistent, does give you some flexibility, doesn't mean you have to rush it through, can continue matters for hearings, set public hearings, can handle in budget, resolution can be more precise on date of effectiveness. We have done it by ordinance, works by ordinance, little more work by ordinance in that you have publication costs in the Code but is matter of council preference and discretion. They both have advantages, for personal recommendation he would be inclined to go with the resolution, but not critical of either way.

The city auditor stated they were trying to get away from was doing a budget and talk about the rates and several months later bring up rates again and people thought raising the rates twice.