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MINUTES - SERVICE/SAFETY COMMITTEE
Tuesday, April 5, 2005 - 5:00 p.m._____________

Members present: Kreun, chair; Brooks, Kerian, Gershman.

Also present were Council Member Christensen, Al Grasser, John Schmisek, Dennis Potter, Todd Feland, Rick Duquette.

1. Infrastructure funding for Project No. 5774, sanitary sewer along 40th Avenue South
from South 20th Street, east approx. 1900 feet._________________________________
Kreun stated they want to look at the infrastructure funding mechanism for the sanitary sewer along 40th Avenue South from 20th Street to approx. 1900 feet; and asked Al Grasser, city engineer, to go over the policy; that this is a policy that we put into effect and used it on one watermain project.

Grasser stated to identify the problem that brought us to try to find a solution was that we ended up having trunk infrastructure items on section lines and quarter section lines that people didn't receive a direct service on, most properties (residential) wouldn't hook onto this pipe but problem became who paid for it and those types of specials seem to be the ones that most people were objecting to; and council direction was trying to move away from some of these special assessments, looked at this policy to see how providing some of these; that in this instance providing trunk infrastructure into areas to encourage development and to minimize the impact of special assessments to properties. He stated this becomes a problem when trying to run these trunks through parcels that are already developed, and that is the problem they are trying to solve and one of the options the council came up with was the trunk infrastructure policy where the City tries to proactively put in some of these trunk infrastructures which would then be used in various areas - he viewed map and that when talking trunk infrastructure, focusing on sanitary sewer, and tried to put together what he saw for trunk infrastructure needs in the southerly part of the city, could produce another one for the north and the west, but focused on the southend, map shows colored areas that are sanitary sewer service areas and reviewed L.S. 40 which is an existing lift station, City installed the lift station and installed the forcemain, and using CDBG money put in the sanitary sewer truck to the east to Deacon's Green and not showing red line in there because that is an existing trunk (solid red lines are what he sees as remaining trunk infrastructures that need to go into these areas to provide service - potential trunk infrastructure - how they decide to fund them is another issue - that his definition of trunk infrastructure is delivering to areas, primarily very deep, and don't have direct service connections to them (some exceptions). He stated on the south end of the map see gray areas with lift stations X, V and T and those are generic and follow on the quarter section lines and feed to a lift station that is generally located in the middle of that section of land.

Christensen reported present.

Grasser viewed map showing areas where trunk lines are and trunk lines installed to L.S. 39 and on 55th Ave.S. to the edge and - some of those were installed with CDBG money and some were special assessed and some future assessments and tapping fees, used a number of tools over the years to accomplish this - back in the EPA days a number of the trunks in and around town funded with EPA money when in the sewer separation areas. Depth gets to be a matter of cost and very expensive but on a collector street like 20th Street have enough frontage that you are a business, businesses primarily not restricted from tapping into that but when get farther south where Useldinger property is going in, can see where streets are laid out to go east and west and no streets tapping into 20th Street but house services come off the laterals off each street and goes to the trunkline - laterals connect to the trunkline which goes to the lift station and then pumped out.

Christensen stated they passed something in 2002 that said we were to determine if request needs trunk infrastructure definitions, and the policy that was passed was to drive future development, encourage development in portions of the town and what part of town needs trunklines for sewer and water that is ready for development. Grasser stated the area that is being developed and a lot of that has to do with the Stadter Clinic area where don't have gravity sanitary sewer available for the whole service area. Christensen said that except all of those people are being served and have made arrangements and Gransberg doesn't want anything to do with this, and have deviated markedly from the policy --Stadter Clinic expansion doesn't need this because they are handling all their sewage already otherwise wouldn't have expanded, that no one would have done it if hadn't had a place to put their sewage and no one would have given them a building permit if they hadn't had sewage arrangements, and leaves with 3 apartments that can go across the street. Kreun asked if we would have to build a pump station/lift station, that if we can get in there first and develop a gravity feed system will be much less costly than waiting for the development to come through and then have to build a couple lift stations.

Christensen asked what about section between LS40 and LS39 and in that area (golf course) and never any development there and Grasser stated that was why didn't plan a lift station for that section of land - have lift station in LS33 which plan to cover the whole section because tie in. Christensen stated that when plan to build another lift station -- Kreun stated he used that as an example but in generalities and if can produce this policy and make it work, saves building extra lift stations, Christensen agreed. Christensen stated we are going to put $250,000 in here and the development that is on-going doesn't need it and his question is, could it be better spent somewhere else. Kreun asked why doesn't it need it. Grasser stated the way situations develop is when you get somebody like Stadter that can't reach with a sanitary sewer and have choice of saying that not going to build that land until everything else comes to you, what do in order to allow the development to take place is that have said that we have a forcemain nearby and have to put in your own lift station to serve your property until we get there, eventually plan on servicing all of our property with a gravity system and in the case of Stadter they did that 7 years ago when they put up the clinic, and these additional buildings have come up to us and we have said, you don't have a sanitary sewer and your choices are that either you all individually start making your own lift stations and pumping into the forcemain which we don't like or they have to collectively come in and evaluate where the existing lift station is sufficiently sized for your needs and found out that the one that is there isn't going to be big enough to serve the private lift station because the City isn't going to take that over and they are going to be faced with two issues, either try to get by with the small lift station until can get there with the gravity and they can hook up or if feel the gravity isn't going to be there in sufficient time to use it they are going to build another lift station or upgrade the one they have and that is based on the consultants that we had look at, that we are telling them what we have available and trying to work with them to allow something to develop.

Christensen sated that Stadter has a private lift station and the apartments don't but they are going across the street now to 47th and where are they pumping their sewage; Grasser stated that sewer is collected and put in the Stadter lift station. Christensen stated that if the Stadter lift station has to be upgraded and these people will have to deal with Stadter's to get it into the private lift station, what is it going to cost. Grasser stated he didn't know the cost and if they do it privately est. $50 or $60,000. Christensen stated he didn't mind encouraging future development but not in favor of taking taxpayers' dollars and pay someone else's freight and if want to do this, should put the $60,000 into this deal or $100,000 into this deal because if have it, won't have to upgrade it again because not letting them benefit on the backs of the little guy. Grasser stated it might be an important policy issue for us to understand, we have been moving under assumption that our goal is to trying to get standard gravity sewer for everybody and temp. lift station is a band aid because part of the reason is if go back to maintenance costs, etc. and if we have to take down a lift station or fix a main, now can focus our pumping and rerouting issues at one lift station but if have private lift station in between, have more to deal with and if the private stations are acceptable to the city, we would need to understand that because that is not the direction we have been going

Gershman stated they had talked about trying to spur development, and these folks made a decision to develop this land knowing what the restrictions were and if going to go anywhere to try to develop something could to over to Useldinger's and that we direct where the development is - his point is that going back to what had talked about, not to put this in an area that is development but in an area where want to spur development.

Christensen asked who owns the 100 living units. Grasser stated firm out of Minneapolis talking about building but Curran owns the land. Gershman asked if we told these people that the City was going to put the trunkline in and spending this money to benefit their project. Grasser stated we told them we have this policy to put in infrastructure if everything works out - have to have free land to install it and if don't get free land and basically contingent upon the availability of land and now if they want to develop have a couple options - either have to put in their own lift station and forcemain or somehow go through a process of trying to get a gravity sewer to them.

Gershman asked when they came to get their permit and are going to build 100 units and do the expansion of Stadter - Christensen stated they haven't even asked for that - Grasser stated that the 100-units talking about gated community concept and 57 being built, and Gershman asked if we made any representations to any of these people when they took out their permits that we would be paying for some of the infrastructure - that we never made any representations to any of them. Grasser stated they've talked about it because have said we intend to get sewer to this area eventually under gravity conditions and best for everybody to plan - we try to plan out roughly the layouts because we can't have them putting a building - once they build and put in buildings and parking lots, etc. difficult to put in gravity sewer. Gershman stated that is not our problem, they made the choice to develop that and if have to build their own station to pump it over to us and that is what they are going to have to do. Kreun stated that is not going to be a station that is going to be able to handle the amount of sewage that is going to go through there - Gershman stated that they are going to have some tenant problems - Kreun stated that they will ask, how come you didn't build it to accommodate our usage.

Christensen stated let us address our issues - 1) that he thought the policy was to spur development, not to enhance on-going development, the policy says you get your easements, have them or right of way is free - that Mr. Gransberg has written a letter saying he is not interested; 2) where are you going to get the money for the easement, have to take it, can't put on the other side because you have a ditch, 3) if want to do this, that Mr. Gornowicz is only bringing in from the south up and doesn't want to get close to this pipe because he doesn't want to pay either, and only people that are paying are everybody in this room so that someday your successor won't have a problem with private lift station on Stadter because Stadter and the apartments are going to team together and Stone's could care less ever about this because they have their own septic. Kerian stated in Gransberg's letter, it doesn't say they won't want to give an easement but not an easement and then pay for the special assessments, and thinks it would be useful to come up with that list of things and see how it qualifies and sees 5 things that they evaluate on: the half mile spacing, just for development, to avoid higher infrastructure costs and in this case avoid another lift station, larger deep front lines and get the easement without cost; and if have that set of things, can put this and other opportunities against those 5 things and how does this opportunity versus another one, and which is best or avoid cost for the City.

Christensen asked what costs are there for the City if our staff has already issued the building permit and allowed the development to go forward for the apartments and for Stadter, and assumes our staff had taken those things into consideration and those things came up neutral or our staff wouldn't have issued the building permits or allowed the development to go on.

Grasser stated what we identified to them is that they have to independently address their sanitary sewer and that means they have to build another lift station, and no cost to the City. He stated the easterly half of section of lift station 33 area, whoever comes in there and wherever they come in there is going to have a challenge for the sanitary sewer and will try to deal with them as best we can on a case by case basis, but it is difficult to control which lift stations that their sewer is going to end up in.

Rick Duquette, adm. coordinator, present.

Gershman stated these people are developing this project and they have to put their own lift stations in because we have no ability to be there - this does not spur new development in areas we want to direct it - this is happening independent of what we were doing. Grasser stated it is only happening because we were in arrears on putting this in because if we had the money and were looking ahead as you try to encourage compact development - that stretch on Washington fits into that scenario. Kreun stated that if we would have had this policy in place 5 years ago, we would have had that in place, they would have been hooked up and paying special assessments for the lateral lines and not have to build their own pump station and that is what we are going to try to do in these other areas. Gershman asked what about special assessing them - Grasser stated it depends what you identify as the service area, could create an assessment district and future assessment district that would try to identify as best we can the service areas, and fund that trunk infrastructure in that manner. Christensen stated that is logical step because to the north of the red line is a field and that would be a future special assessment district and to the south of the red line is Gornowicz's property and a future special assessment district and the rest of the people as brought in will pick up specials.

That if Mr. Gransberg would refuse to give the easement, could condemn it, and real issue for him is - creating a future special assessment district or when think develop his property, will require a sewer, and by us doing this will not build lift station but a line so we don't have to give away taxpayers' dollars to enhance on-going development. Kerian asked why this would not be spurring development to the north. Christensen stated it is not going to do anything but give him something - that Useldinger's want to develop and Gransberg doesn't.

Kreun stated the problem is in this particular case is going backwards, problem is we are going to have to put in the proper size sanitary system and gravity and at that point in time they are going to say, why didn't you do it before we had our parking lots in, landscaping done, etc. and now going through property to destroy it all and then put it back the way it was and cost $200,000 to $300,000 more than what spend right now. Gershman stated that is one reason they should participate in it now. Grasser stated he has no problem with that, what he showed was hypothetical diagonal line as to where sewers are going to go to, and depending on how development occurs there can be a fair amount of overlap and his suggestion is that they identify this whole area as potential for receiving benefit and then if do it as a future assessment district because can find out if someone develops in here and when find out where their sewer is going and don't create the district but anyplace in there where they tie into this main we catch them on the future assessment district. Christensen asked why they don't just make them pay and don't have any variables, so either tying into that or not, and it was noted that will spur development. Grasser stated the problem that he sees is can't suggest a methodology where he can give any assurance as to who will or won't tie into this specific main - the closer you are to the main the greater the likelihood is that they will tie into it but as you get away from it, could tie into existing one or could decide to tie into the new one. Brooks stated it is our trunkline so we direct and we can identify who can go where.

Christensen asked on the north/south one who has paid for that; Grasser stated that was paid for by CDBG money. Brooks stated that if don't know who is going to go where, can we designate where they hook up. Grasser stated they have not been that aggressive in controlling the growth and if everybody has political will to take the consequences. Christensen stated that we can pass an ordinance that says the staff will direct the sewer placement.

Gershman excused from meeting.

Kerian stated that north/south funded by CDBG and now have east/west piece that has to be funded somewhere, and if there is difference to the developer on their costs of going into one or the other, and how can we even that out in this property. Grasser stated to level the field put in the same trunk infrastructure for everybody and don't charge anybody for it. Kerian stated or put in same infrastructure and charge everybody something. Grasser stated that the people getting service from the first one they are off the hook. Christensen stated we should explore putting in the trunkline and do it right and figure out the special assessments and go to them that they have a chance, and would take the specials and drop the $60,000, maybe not, and we still have the opportunity to do what Brooks is saying, #40 and next primary development in town, and pass ordinance.

Kreun asked Mr. Potter and Grasser asked how much problems will we have with major players, Stadter Center, Crary and Gornowicz doing what suggesting, building - Grasser stated he felt everyone have a different reaction and if he can tell him that this development is going to happen this summer, thinks Stadter people will be faced with situation that this project and the stub down to get to them by gravity isn't going to happen quick enough to meet their needs, and thinks in an upgrade. Christensen stated they are going to have that choice plus going to get for specials because we are going to special them and that is their business decision. Kreun stated they don't have opportunity to protest out sanitary sewer; Grasser stated they can't protest it.

Grasser stated they only thing he would need from the committee is a sense of where we would identify the benefiting line, and doesn't want to represent that Gransberg will give us that land for free under a future or special assessment and if willing to pursue that to the point of condemnation of the land, that obtaining that land through condemnation is a realistic possibility.
Grasser stated he was looking for direction from the committee.

Grasser stated in answer to Duquette's question that the city council has to approve the special assessment district which sets up the potentially benefiting area, then goes to the Special Assessment Commission to try to assign benefits.

Christensen stated the future special assessment district is north to 32nd Ave and takes in Gransberg's property. Grasser asked if he should allow a distance off of the existing main, and existing main was installed for free. Kreun asked if they are deriving benefit from it, and Grasser stated it would be difficult to say a property adjacent to an existing sewer is going to hook up to somewhere else.
Relating to the special assessment district Grasser stated they have identified that they should go north to 32nd and south to 47th as part of the southerly boundary, easterly to Washington Street, and as come south of 40th Avenue South, a line that makes some level of sense would be to drive it down South 19th Street and people west of that will go to the other sewer, and may want to extend that line parallel off of the other line on 20th, would call this 600 ft. off of this line on 20th and could parallel another 600 ft. off the existing line assuming that these properties will probably tie into that line. Christensen asked if go 600 feet on the existing front line or stop at 19th and drive everything from 19th to the west into the existing front line or go with hatch line in the middle rather than go 19th.

Kreun asked what makes the most logical sense to make our system work the best, we always accommodate and that is where we get into the problem, that we try to do this, plan to do this and developer asks for more, and asked Grasser what is the best way to design that system and where can make it work the best and get best service out of it. Grasser stated his suggestion is the half section line between 19th and 20th, and call it 300 ft. and continue that 300 feet parallel to the line north of 40th Avenue South and cut it off when it hits 36th, everything else is in a potentially benefiting area, and what he would suggest is going to work out best politically and to allow some flexibility is to say if somebody doesn't end up connecting into this new line basically you don't create the future assessment district and bring them in; and downside is that you're not going to recoup 100% of the dollars you invest but will help clear you from getting into trouble with developers about not making any sense to go into this main and way laying out makes sense to go this way. Christensen stated 300 feet on the east side of your existing trunk line and have your line in the middle, not sure if have another choice but that is going to force everybody to pump into this proposed trunk line and as move forward they are going to have to take sewer going into that line, that Gornowicz isn't going to want to go over to S. 20th, and if have to pay for it, its lot shorter line going to the west than to the north. Grasser stated the developer will choose to take the cheapest route and depends on what he is paying for and what Christensen is suggesting is that we make him pay for 40th anyway and cost becomes an non-issue. John Schmisek, city auditor asked how do you make him pay for 40th if the Commission doesn't find benefit; and Christensen stated they go back to the drawing board. Kreun stated if take what Brooks stated earlier and indicate that people there are going to hook up to that particular one and not going to 20th, then the Commission will find benefit; that if you require them to hook up to that particular line which goes into that forcemain on 40th -

After further discussion Grasser suggested that the committee break and give them a week or two and will bring in something more defined. Christensen asked that they have another meeting in 10 days, Grasser stated he would contact Gransberg to see what his reaction might be.

Christensen sated he has been working on some projects in Oklahoma City and dealing with a CPS-type firm in Oklahoma City and they are moving to the west of Oklahoma City down interstate and simple deal - platting, sewer and pay for it and none of this will happen unless there is money there for the sewer, no special assessments. Kreun stated a lot of times they don't do special assessments but they bear the whole cost. Christensen stated they roll it onto the lot, that we bend over backwards with future special assessment districts and front cost and take it out of infrastructure

Kreun stated we will set up another meeting and would like recommendations from engineering. Christensen stated that if moving on 40th and would like to know what to do with that, whether special or future. Grasser stated they would come up with a method of financing. Kerian stated she would like to see a method that staff can go through these checklists and would like 5 or 6 items of criteria so that when comparing one section against another that have measurables. Kreun stated they should develop a list of criteria that this property should meet and committee will review and adopt that and bring to council as a regular policy. Christensen stated that for 2006 will include in the budget $250,000 or $500,000 and let those who own the land know and that we are going to start thinking about that

Meeting adjourned at 6:15 p.m.

Alice Fontaine
City Clerk